Legislature(2015 - 2016)BUTROVICH 205
03/09/2015 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| Overview: Wetland Mitigation | |
| SB70 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| *+ | SB 70 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | HJR 7 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | HJR 8 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | HJR 6 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
SB 70-GAS PIPELINE RIGHT-OF-WAY;PARKS;REFUGES
4:18:45 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL announced SB 70 to be up for consideration. She
invited Mr. Ellis and Mr. Perrin to the table.
4:19:34 PM
BEN ELLIS, Director, Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation,
Department of Natural Resources (DNR), Juneau, Alaska, explained
that SB 70 will allow a gasline to go through four Alaska state
parks. He explained that when recreational land has been pulled
out of the general state land the multipurpose use has been
replaced by a specific use, in this case it would be recreation.
Because of the difference between Title 38 lands (general state
land administered by the Division of Mining, Land and Water) and
Title 41 land (state park lands) he does not have the ability to
do any type of long-term lease on Title 41 land. The concept of
title 41 is to lease for short periods of time of four or five
years to allow a concession or something similar to occupy an
area; Title 41 lands are not designed for long-term leasing that
the right-of-way for a pipeline would need. This bill addresses
that by allowing the four units mentioned to be used in a right-
of-way situation while still being managed for park intent.
4:21:48 PM
DON PERRIN, Acting Coordinator, State Pipeline Coordinator's
Office, Department of Natural Resources (DNR), said the intent
of this bill is to allow for a pipeline corridor through Denali
State Park and three other identified state recreational areas
that are all under Title 41.
He said the State Pipeline Coordinator issued a 38.35 right-of-
way (ROW) lease to the Alaska Gasline Development Corporation
(AGDC) in 2011. Presently it is a dis-contiguous lease because
of these Title 41 lands. This bill would allow them to apply the
Right-of-Way Leasing Act and have a contiguous 38.35 lease
through state lands.
He said the primary objective of the bill authorizes the lease
under the Right-of-Way Leasing Act. It requires that the
corridor be managed as park land and recreation areas until
leased under 38.35 and then returned to park land and
recreational areas upon termination of the lease. It also
provides supplemental requirements to reserve traditional means
of public access and minimizes the impact of the pipeline on
specific values of the park and recreation areas. This means
that the State Pipeline Coordinator's Office would work with the
Division of Parks and Outdoor Recreation to formulate and
establish stipulations and requirements of the lease that are
intended to protect the park values of those areas. It also
clarifies that it is in the DNR commissioner's power to delegate
condemnation authority to a lessee that does not apply within
these park area boundaries. In other words, they cannot condemn
this land for a pipeline.
Finally, Mr. Perrin explained that SB 70 would require that the
gas pipeline lease be issued before January 1, 2020.
MR. ELLIS explained that the bill is needed so there can be a
right-of-way lease through the four state park units: Denali
State Park and the recreational areas of Willow Creek, Nancy
Lake, and Captain Cook State Park.
4:25:29 PM
MR. PERRIN said one might ask why this bill does not include the
state game refuges. They believe that the 38.35 Right-of-Way
Leasing Act does apply in those areas and therefore they were
not included in the bill. Permitting for geotechnical and other
field work that will support the final application is being
conducted in those areas, as well. So, after discussion with the
Department of Law, they didn't feel they needed to include the
state game refuges. In regards to the two gasline projects, the
ASAP and AKLNG, the corridor that would be created through this
bill is basically what would be granted to AGDC upon review of
their amended application.
4:27:36 PM
History:
In 2012 the Corps of Engineers finalized their EIS and the ROW
was granted. It follows the DOTPF ROW along the Denali Highway,
but because it was through Title 41 lands, the department
determined the ROW Leasing Act didn't apply there.
In 2013, the AKLNG project came into being and the engineers for
both projects began working together in terms of the
geotechnical work needed for the ROW. This means core holes are
being drilled to assess the underlying soils to come up with the
best ROW. While it is a little early for AKLNG to finalize a
ROW, they believe this corridor will suffice for both projects
and any gasline project. Both projects are currently conducting
field work along that corridor to gather information that would
support an application at some point.
4:28:57 PM
MR. ELLIS said they had an organizational meeting with field
workers and this Wednesday the first work will begin.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how confident he is that this is the
line the "Big Three" are building.
MR. PERRIN answered that their confidence level is based on the
field work that is currently occurring. They won't know what the
final alignment is until FERC has completed its process for
AKLNG.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if it's better to pass this now or to
wait.
MR. PERRIN answered if they could pass it now, it is enough land
to accommodate either project.
CHAIR GIESSEL said asked how much wiggle room there is if the
line moves.
MR. PERRIN answered there is a significant amount of wiggle
room, although the ASAP project could end up with something
other than the line.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how large the easement is.
4:31:44 PM
FRANK RICHARDS, Vice President, Engineering and Program
Management, Alaska Gasline Development Corporation (AGDC),
Anchorage, Alaska, invited Mike Thompson to answer it.
MIKE THOMPSON, Environmental Regulatory and Lands Manager,
Alaska Stand Alone Pipeline (ASAP) Project, Anchorage, Alaska,
answered that they are looking at 120 foot easement for both
construction and operations and a 300 foot buffer on both sides;
so a total of 750 feet. Any quarter section that touches that
buffer within 300 feet of that buffer was incorporated into the
corridor they are discussing right now. A quarter section is
about 1320 feet by 1320 feet. This is a fairly significant
buffer and ASAP's engineering team said it would meet their
needs.
SENATOR COSTELLO reminded them of the Creamer's Field issue and
asked what assurances the legislature has that the descriptions
are correct.
4:37:06 PM
MR. ELLIS answered that this is the description that they feel
assured with, but there may be modifications to it.
CHAIR GIESSEL asked Mr. Richards if these are accurate
descriptions of these properties.
4:38:20 PM
MR. RICHARDS said the land descriptions in Section 1 actually
came from AGDC. The reason they are comfortable with this is
because it provides a sufficient amount of area to make
modifications as they work with their partners, AKLNG, on a
common alignment.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how 750 feet compares to the
TransAlaska Pipeline System (TAPS) buffer and if there would be
public access through this corridor.
MR. ELLIS answered that they would envision working with the
least impact to the area and manage that through stipulations,
and it would still be open for people to cross.
4:41:17 PM
SENATOR MICCICHE pointed out that language on page 4, line 9,
would reserve uses for typical use as opposed to leaving it up
to ROW law.
SENATOR COSTELLO asked what changes Mr. Ellis was anticipating
and how they related to HB 139.
MR. ELLIS replied that his earlier comment was more in a small
sense of movement. In other words, the ROW line they see now
will not be the final ROW line, but he was confident it will be
within the 750 foot ROW easement that this would grant.
He said they began reviewing HB 139 on Friday and couldn't do a
comparison at this time, but it will need to be done.
SENATOR STOLTZE asked if he thought it would have de minimis
consequences for this project.
MR. ELLIS answered that one of the largest differences he could
see offhand is that HB 139 includes refuges within the
description. He would have to defer to the Alaska Department of
Fish and Game or the Department of Law as to whether it needs to
be in there.
MR. PERRIN added that HB 139 is still being reviewed, but it is
exclusive to AGDC and the ASAP project and not a pipeline in
general.
CHAIR GIESSEL said this bill would be held over and that
information should be available for the next hearing. They are
pretty concerned that parts won't be left out again.
4:46:41 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if there were any impacts to hunting
or the ability to use firearms.
MR. ELLIS answered that would definitely be a negative impact on
hunting and using firearms near the corridor.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he saw any businesses being taken
by eminent domain with passage of this bill.
MR. ELLIS answered no, but that is a question for the Department
of Law.
4:48:00 PM
JOHN HUTCHINSON, Assistant Attorney General, Department of Law
(DOL), Juneau, Alaska, said the final question about eminent
domain is one for someone involved with the pipeline projects.
There are several private inholdings within the state parks and
the question is if that alignment go through a private holding.
The bill requires the state to exercise eminent domain but it is
not actually authorized in several of the parks; the state is
required to purchase land rather than take it through eminent
domain. It's unlikely that there will be any takings within the
parks using eminent domain.
He also clarified that the corridor identified in this bill is
not actually the final ROW; it is a corridor of land through
which leasing would be authorized. The legislature would be
giving back to DNR the power to authorize at least somewhere
within this corridor the final construction corridor that Mr.
Thompson was talking about, which would be some small segment
within the legal description.
He said the Talerico bill takes a different approach in
authorizing leasing throughout the park; there is no set
corridor.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked which approach was preferable from a
legal standpoint.
MR. HUTCHINSON answered that was a policy question. The
legislature is authorized to open this land for leasing and the
governor's bill takes a more minimalist approach in identifying
a corridor within which a lease is authorized to be issued. The
downside to that is that there is some uncertainty about where
the pipeline will finally cross. The upside is that the entire
park is not being opened to ROW leasing.
SENATOR COSTELLO said this sets a general guideline for the
area, but would this legislation have to be replaced or changed
at some point. Is it just a building block for the pipeline at
which some point they will know the specific route?
MR. HUTCHINSON answered no; the legislature would not have to
come back. This sets an area through which leasing is authorized
for 10 years until January 1, 2020. The only reason the
legislature would have to look at it again is if the pipeline is
in a dramatically different place.
SENATOR COSTELLO asked if there is any practical difference
between saying we know this is the area that could change and
the Talerico blanket approach.
MR. HUTCHINSON answered that is a complicated question. One
advantage in the governor's approach is if there was a
challenge, the legislature had already looked at this particular
corridor, which would limit review of that decision by the
courts. A much broader bill would require lots of specific
circumstances leaving it more open to challenge.
4:54:19 PM
SENATOR STOLTZE asked Mr. Ellis to define what some of the
stakeholders are in this process from his division's standpoint.
MR. ELLIS answered that he had no discussions with stakeholders
on this process so far, but during the EIS of a previous
rendition meetings were held in Talkeetna, Trapper Creek and
other places where individuals made comments. He is in the
process of getting those comments. Alaska State Parks would
consider stakeholders to be various user groups in the area,
businesses and the MatSu Advisory Board.
SENATOR MICCICHE asked him to research whether firearms will be
allowed on the ROW. It is open to traditional uses except in
very specific cases like during construction.
4:57:16 PM
MR. ELLIS responded that his comment was about the construction
stage.
MR. PERRIN added that through the remainder of the current ROW
that exists (the 38.35 on state lands) the hunting analogy is
the same. Folks access and hunt along those non-park lands and
so the analogy would be the same in the park as outside the
park. It will need to be clarified.
SENATOR MICCICHE pointed out that under 49 CFR 192 requires
maintaining the ROW. So, actually there is improved access in
many situations.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if the improved access is going
through wetland areas, would it be converted into an area that
can be walked or driven over.
MR. ELLIS answered that it is premature to say, but the intent
would be to use the "rails for trails" model where old railroad
beds were turned into hiking or ATV trails. And some level of
restoration must be looked at.
CHAIR GIESSEL said she would hold SB 70 for further review.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| SRES Wetland Mitigation March 9 2015.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
|
| SB0070A.PDF |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| Fiscal Note-SB0070-1-2-030615-DNR-N.PDF |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70 Hearing Request.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70 Sectional Analysis .pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70 Supporting Document- (LAS 30116 AGDC Geotech State Parks Permit final signed 2015).pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB70 Gov Transmittal Letter.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70 Briefing Paper .pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70-Supporting Document-MapCaptainCookSRA_11x17_150224.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70-Supporting Document-Map-Denali_11x17_150225r.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70-Supporting Document-Map-Nancy_Lake_SRA_11x17_150224.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |
| SB 70-Supporting Document-Map-WillowCreek_11x17_150224.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2015 3:30:00 PM |
SB 70 |